tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post7512022279290261868..comments2024-03-25T00:18:14.319-07:00Comments on Against The Wicked City: Bringing Down the Hammer, part 12: my own private WFRPJoseph Manolahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05387275537008858939noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-19211355424398628602024-01-31T12:37:48.275-08:002024-01-31T12:37:48.275-08:00Yes.
Though I personally see it as 16th century, n...Yes.<br />Though I personally see it as 16th century, not 17th. War of Religion in France, Dutch rebelling against Spain, START of conquering the New World, Queen Margot & Jolly King Henri, Gloriana aka Red Bess, most influential fencing textbooks, and all that beauty. ;)<br />And one thing I seriously disagree with: no, Enlightenment DOESN'T start from periphery. No freaking PEter The Great before West European bureaucratic states formed as an inspiration for him. Ivan the Terrible, yes, possibly. Same with Sweden, etc. Actually, later-eds Bretonia - with, as I noted at the time of 6e WFB, worse technology than Orks ;) - is a possible backwater kingdom, like Scotland/Ireland irl. Though, of course, irl France and England were much more developed.<br />And on High Elves/Sea Elves my headcanon was always that Old Worlders just don't meet any other kind except those guys - and gals - from Lothern, typically on the younger side, who come to the Old World to trade, or "politely" request pesky human ships to turn back from certain areas. They are MORE visible than Wood Elves, surely. But mainly in their trade factories in big ports. And all other cultures of Ulthuan are just unknown. Mages, yes, probably heard ABOUT Hoeth... ;)<br />MikeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-56785062294269924352023-04-01T01:44:08.427-07:002023-04-01T01:44:08.427-07:00I just want to say that this is an excellent post ...I just want to say that this is an excellent post and I've recommended it to several other people who are asking for advise about running TEW.Patrik Phttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17832977769143589794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-89077837609243080202022-10-29T03:50:59.205-07:002022-10-29T03:50:59.205-07:00I think they're suggesting how they would fram...I think they're suggesting how they would frame Albion (England under James I), rather than thinking that the canon GW Albion is equivalent to Stuart England.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-85590908350833436032022-09-25T01:40:30.179-07:002022-09-25T01:40:30.179-07:00Now I make me wonder what would the wicked city be...Now I make me wonder what would the wicked city bei n warhammer, in a intersting way the whole city would look....nicer compare to many others like Naggaroth and Zhar garrund.Diego ernestohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14162112803281913763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-74058670438100773242022-08-26T10:29:38.069-07:002022-08-26T10:29:38.069-07:00You don't know what England under James 1 was ...You don't know what England under James 1 was like or you don't know what Albion is like if you think they're supposed to be equivilentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-65508408469847992842022-08-18T06:12:49.419-07:002022-08-18T06:12:49.419-07:00Fantatic right up and completely agree. IMO this ...Fantatic right up and completely agree. IMO this version of the Old World that you describe is perhaps one of the best Fantasy campaigns ever invented, as it is human centric but there is *just enough weird to make it interesting and dynamic, and you are COMPLETELY correct about the upper classes vs the lower. It's such an interesting social dynamic that is missing from most DnD games. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-48566662079340563262019-12-11T08:01:32.656-08:002019-12-11T08:01:32.656-08:00As for the high elves I view them as being to a de...As for the high elves I view them as being to a degree like how the relationship between Germany and Scandinavia with the roman empire has been interpreted based on archeological finds, or as in what little I’ve read about the interaction between the roman and Chinese empire. Namely that these appear not to have been mythical places, but rather areas viewed as immensely far away, but with goods that would be very attractive to people everywhere in the empire. Given that a lot of the high elves in the empire are traders and merchants and they are probably not all of the ultra rich merchant prince type you would not only have elves that deal in luxury goods, but also merchants that deal in cheaper mass produced goods like ceramics and pottery that they can barter and sell to the common people for a good profit due to elven goods being highly sought after by everyone. Somewhat like the finds of Roman goods like Terra sigilata ceramics and glassware in Scandinavia. Areas like Marienburg, Altdorf and other big cities might be viewed as “border areas “where the distinct cultures interact and trade, with “lots” of elves from all kinds of social layers mixing with the cities populace. Elves would not be viewed as “exotic” as much as perhaps just “foreign”. Outside of the big cities in smaller villages and towns are where the mass produced elven goods would become truly important prestige items, with stories connected to the items passed down from the buyer about seeing the graceful elven ships and how he bought this plate of this carafe from an elven merchant and in this way tying the small village to the much bigger world out there. An elf visiting such a small town might not be seen as mythical as much as a truly exiting event where the “rich foreign people” your grandmother told about are suddenly here! <br /><br />As for greenskins I interpretate them as being a very, very real and very dangerous part of life in the empire, and dealing with the dangers of greenskin raids is something all communities in the empire must be prepared for, viewing them as myths would be considered foolish. Rooting out and destroying greenskin infestation before they grow out of hand Is something I see as being an important assignment for Road and Riverwardens given that WAAGHS earlier have not just cost the empire an Emperor and destroyed the province of Solland, but is also an important part of the empires founding myth. There is also the fact that stopping an orc WAAGH was one of the newly crowned Karl Franz first achievements and seems to be what the state armies seem to fight the most, when they are not fighting eachother<br />I guess my take is that in my interpretation of the old world things that there are “clear evidence” of existing or having existed are for the most part considered as being real, you might not ever meet a black orc or an elf yourself, but the evidence of them existing is here in the form of the old retired roadwarden that could tell you how he lost his leg fighting the grenskins, or the really nice white plates and spoons that your mate brought back from the nearest big town while boasting about buying them from an elven merchant The different ways people interpret fantasy worlds are something I’ve always enjoyed and especially the more down to earth thing, like daily life and such.<br />HenryVapenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-71769525570958433082019-12-11T08:00:33.457-08:002019-12-11T08:00:33.457-08:00I really like your version of the Empire, though t...I really like your version of the Empire, though there are certain areas i would say i deviate with you on. In my interpretation of the empire based on what i've read dwarfs are fairly common in all areas of the empire both the urban and rural areas and the importance of the "mountainfolks" in imperial history has led to them being viewed as part of society. For example a group of traveling dwarf merchants visting a small town would not be seen as "a once in a lifetime event", but would be special in that it would be common knowledge that dwarves tend to carry high quality goods and will most of the time deal with you honestly and fair. <br /><br />On the other hand while dwarfs in the empire would be integrated in empire society and be considered “imperial citizens” they also, to a degree keep themselves “outside it” at the same time. For example in the form of often choosing to live amongst themselves in particular areas of cities or villages and having a lot of cultural norms that might be viewed as “weird” and “just how they are” by the human inhabitants such as their extreme focus on honour, carrying grudges and oaths between generation for centuries longer something that sometimes end up in your drinking buddy suddenly dying his hair orange and disappearing into the woods after a drinking binge that perhaps went a bit too far. In my interpretation of the old world there is also a pretty big divide between the “Imperial dwarfs” and the “Karas Ankor” and “Grey mountain” dwarfs from how “far way” they could be considered to be from the physical remants of the dwarfs “golden age”. While a dwarf living in Altdorf, perhaps even born and raised in the city and as such a product of both his or her dwarfen culture and history learned from the indiviuals clan and family and the culture and history of Altdorf might be seen as somewhat rigid and stubborn by his human friends, dwarfs from the mountainholds would probably view him or her as dangerously radical, way to flexible and probably be grumbling about “the kids today” and the lack of “dwarfishness” . Meanwhile a Karas Ankor dwarf might view even a Grey mountain dwarf as to flexible and radical given that they also exist outside what is considered the dwarfs homeland in comparatively “new holds” from after the fall of the empire where “dangerous new ideas” about what being a dwarf really means could have been spawned. While both Imperial Dwarfs and Grey mountain dwarfs might idealize the Karaz Ankor as the pinnacle of the dwarf culture. Its probably likely that if they ever meet a Karaz Ankor dwarf they would view them as arrogant, stuck up and perhaps even stubborn and stuck in the past. Considering that there are dwarfs that even others dwarfs might consider “too conservative” that could really cause a clash between people used to dealing with Imperial dwarfs if they ever met a Karaz Ankor dwarf! <br />The TLDR could probably be viewed as dwarves being an accepted and “taken for granted” part of imperial society, but at the same time never completely integrated in this society.<br /><br />HenryVapenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-39925100865359061862018-12-23T07:01:47.508-08:002018-12-23T07:01:47.508-08:00Good find! I don't think it's *quite* a sl...Good find! I don't think it's *quite* a slam-dunk, because the three key elements - fantasy settings that used to be SF settings, hyperspace gates as physical objects fixed in specific locations, and ancient races who used to travel through space and time until someone fucked up and broke everything - are all common enough in SF that I can easily imagine two people independently deciding to put them all together. But finding all three in a novel that came out just a few years before WFRP is certainly very suggestive. I don't suppose the qhal are described as looking like frogs, are they?<br /><br />I agree that more folkloric goblins, like the ones in Dragon Warriors, would work better for WFRP than the ones in the wargame. Fortunately GW's already done most of the work for us in that respect, in the form of the Forest Goblins (creepy little people who live in the depths of the forest, shoot you with poisoned arrows, and drag you away to feed to their giant spiders) and the Night Goblins (crazed subterranean degenerates in black rags who come swarming out of caves to whack you with clubs, snare you in nets, and carry you off beneath the earth, never to be seen again). Just make them the primary forms of Old World goblinoid, rather than the idiot greenskin hordes of WFB, and the problem should largely solve itself!Joseph Manolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05387275537008858939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-46363163609481846502018-12-22T14:44:34.747-08:002018-12-22T14:44:34.747-08:00A great read - and I think you really nail a probl...A great read - and I think you really nail a problem of the Old World setting with your point 9. The orcs/goblins always strike me as a bit of a failure of the imagination in Warhammer - and the biggest source of tension between the wargame and the RPG. Reimagining them as spooky, liminal creatures of the wilderness or as dwellers inside rocks of a bergtroll/duergar/draugr/fairy sort would fix this, I think.<br /><br />On the Warhammer world: I've just chanced upon a plausible literary source for one of its underpinnings: CJ Cherryh's Gate of Ivrel:<br /><br />http://hobgoblinry.blogspot.com/2018/12/the-qhal-and-slann-or-did-cj-cherryh.html<br />JChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17964744140140515737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-5316123383243509282018-11-20T15:18:29.024-08:002018-11-20T15:18:29.024-08:00Because I wanted to keep the setting pegged to the...Because I wanted to keep the setting pegged to the 16th and 17th centuries, so the Dark Ages vikings of the official setting were right out. The original WFRP corebook described the Norscans as holding the line against the forces of chaos in the far north, so my mind immediately went to Sweden under Gustavus Adolphus as an example of what a highly militarised early modern Scandinavian state might look like. <br /><br />The fact that Sweden played such an important role in the Thirty Years War is a bonus, as the Thirty Years War is obviously the model for the looming Imperial civil war which casts such a shadow over 1st edition WFRP, which raises the possibility of a Norscan intervention into a fractured Empire. So at least it has a clear identity and some potential energy to it. Early modern Scandinavia's hardly my specialism, though, so if there's another bit of it that you think would work better, I'd be interested to hear about it!Joseph Manolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05387275537008858939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-40079004670450082952018-11-05T08:34:02.619-08:002018-11-05T08:34:02.619-08:00I've loved reading your series and your ideas ...I've loved reading your series and your ideas in this final post strike me as just the kind of direction I would want to take the Old World. <br /><br />As a Swede and semi-competent student of history I'm curious though what image you see when you think of Norsca by way Gustaphus Adolphus because the hook doesn't seem that obvious. <br /><br />Sweden under Gustavus Adolphus was a poor, sparsely populated nation that managed to achieve a fleeting regional supremacy by dint of civic reforms that allowed it to more efficiently wield the little resources it had, and then multiply them through warfare and extensive and brutal looting of it's wealthy southern neighbours. <br /><br />I could see a place for a Gustavian Norsca in an Empire riven by civil war, but without that war it would just be akin to a poorer, more rural Imperial province. The history buff in me would enjoy it but maybe not many others would. Kallehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06914775787536048959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-91138147477728289432018-11-02T20:59:48.086-07:002018-11-02T20:59:48.086-07:00I was pulling your leg a little. Pity that ideal g...I was pulling your leg a little. Pity that ideal gaming eludes you as it does most responsible adults, it would have been revealing to eventually see a WHFRP game of yours on youTube.Edmundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05932779308015790500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-43420108850886488382018-11-02T04:08:35.333-07:002018-11-02T04:08:35.333-07:00If I ever return to Proper Serious Gaming in real ...If I ever return to Proper Serious Gaming in real life, it'll have to be when my son is older and/or my wife's health improves. For now, anything that can't be run casually over a beer with a few friends in a couple of hours after work is a non-starter.<br /><br />As mentioned above, I do intend to go on to discuss the various WFRP successor systems: WFRP3, LOTFP, Zweihander, etc. Any subsequent big projects will have to wait until after that series concludes...Joseph Manolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05387275537008858939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-42679409949842786732018-11-01T23:56:37.404-07:002018-11-01T23:56:37.404-07:00This has been a neat appraisal. It would have been...This has been a neat appraisal. It would have been more interesting to me to read a campaign report from WHFRP than the irrelevant trash you presented in your next post. Vornheim - Deathfrost, really that garbage? What about your own Wicket City?<br /><br />I would like to see you tackle MERP and even if not MERP then a *playing in Middle-Earth* post. Edmundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05932779308015790500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-711769971449546422018-10-29T00:02:16.162-07:002018-10-29T00:02:16.162-07:00Hey Joseph - I've pinged you a message on Goog...Hey Joseph - I've pinged you a message on Google+, while it still exists, if you need any more help with 3e.<br /><br />One of the relatively good things about 3e is that most of the rules are on the cards, which you don't get with the PDFs ironically.<br /><br />The books are either almost system agnostic scenarios or just very broad sourcebooks which go into various aspects of Imperial society, and are certainly a shorter read than a 2e supplement. The epic level sourcebook Hero's Call clocks in at 80 pages, including a large scenario. The religion sourcebook - 50 pages, compared to Tome of Salvation, though it came with a 2nd Nurgle themed book for GMs.<br /><br />3e is the edition I probably played the most as I had a mate who was a massive proponent of it. We only really used pre-published scenarios as again the game didn't lend itself to making new scenarios (as most GMs could never be able to create individual components to rival those included in pre-written scenarios).<br /><br />My pal invited all and sundry to play, and the group swelled to 8 players. The game grinded to a halt under those circumstances, with some of us using the PHB-style book to allow other players to have the cards (you only got enough stuff for 3 players and a GM in the core set). I used to bring a novel to read during combats...Stuarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01603444772602040390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-62834992508627228532018-10-28T13:53:09.290-07:002018-10-28T13:53:09.290-07:00Thanks, Stuart - this is all useful to know. I'...Thanks, Stuart - this is all useful to know. I've found it hard to know how to even begin navigating WFRP3 because of its non-traditional structure, and I've also frankly found the idea of getting to grips with a 30-book edition somewhat intimidating. So it's good to know that much of it can be safely skipped!Joseph Manolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05387275537008858939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-8719189543401204272018-10-28T13:25:03.480-07:002018-10-28T13:25:03.480-07:00No, no, that's fair enough. I imagine PDFs wou...No, no, that's fair enough. I imagine PDFs would be what you're after to review. <br /><br />Really the strength of 3e is in the scenarios - they seem like a fun bunch but are not particularly strong. There was a "New" Enemy Within which was basically about a new set of cultists doing similar things to the old ones, but with a character who was basically "The Claw" leading them. It'd be interesting to get your perspective on those scenarios from an OSR perspective.<br /><br />I have copies of the Enemy Within and the Edge of Night, but no core box, and the PHB, DMG and Monster style 3e rulebooks (which came out a couple of years after the Core set) are little more than look-up tables for all the various skill cards you would use if you didn't stubbornly refuse to buy them (e.g. if you use the Winning Smile Talent and roll Hammer, Hammer, Boon then here is the effect you apply).<br /><br />That said IMHO any of the flaws you had with 2E's setting are even more enhanced with 3e, which dialed back to pre-Storm times - something 2E's Chris Pramas had wanted to do (see http://www.chrispramas.com/2009/09/26/wfrp2-and-the-storm-of-chaos/ if you haven't done so before).<br /><br />FFG took a bit of a micro-view to supplements and thus barely got out of Reikland by the time the license was finished. It really felt like they were stretching it out with a War boxed set (Khorne), a Magic boxed set (Tzeentch), a Priestly boxed set (Nurgle) and a Social boxed set (Slaanesh). And then an Epic-Level Character Boxed Set which allowed rules for non-Reikland humans, halflings and ogres (which are sooo unsuited to most WFRP investigative adventures). The other sets are basically adventures, or more crunchy rule cards.Stuarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01603444772602040390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-91046223489403236902018-10-26T13:18:38.969-07:002018-10-26T13:18:38.969-07:00I think the hammer's been pretty well brought ...I think the hammer's been pretty well brought down, to be honest. But I'll soon be starting a new series of posts to discuss what happened next: Zweihander, Small But Vicious Dog, the WFRP 2 fan adventures, Shadow of the Demon Lord, LOTFP, etc. I'm thinking of calling it 'echoes and aftershocks'...Joseph Manolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05387275537008858939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-37091236870822959192018-10-26T13:16:17.694-07:002018-10-26T13:16:17.694-07:00Uhm. I've not read it, and more to the point I...Uhm. I've not read it, and more to the point I've not *played* it, so I don't know how authoritatively I could write about it. (I mean, technically I haven't played 2nd edition either, but it's close enough to 1st that I feel I have some foundation for my judgements.) That said, I seem to have somehow committed myself to some kind of grand overview of the dark eurofantasy genre, so I guess I'll have to address WFRP 3 at some point. There's no way I'm buying all those expensive box sets just to write blog posts about them, though!Joseph Manolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05387275537008858939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-10680047738433611952018-10-26T13:12:52.012-07:002018-10-26T13:12:52.012-07:00To be fair, PCs using periods of civil strife as s...To be fair, PCs using periods of civil strife as springboards for demanding radical social change would be entirely period-appropriate! If only the Levellers had had more fate points...Joseph Manolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05387275537008858939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-5996384880438851762018-10-26T13:09:42.116-07:002018-10-26T13:09:42.116-07:00I think you're right that part of the brillian...I think you're right that part of the brilliance of WFRP's 'chaos' is that it allows you to communicate to modern, secular players the kind of primal horror aroused by 'heresy' in the early modern period. Emmy Allen wrote a bit about it here:<br /><br />http://cavegirlgames.blogspot.com/2018/06/on-cosmic-horror.html<br /><br />I also agree that LOTFP is very heavily informed by WFRP. You could drop a scenario like 'Forgive Us' or 'Death Frost Doom' into a WFRP campaign without changing anything except the place names.<br /><br />In relation to WFRP characters being social misfits - WFRP never seems to have quite decided whether the default character arc was supposed to be downwards into madness and death, as in CoC, or upwards to fame and success, as in D&D. Both at once, perhaps: the careers system means that surviving PCs will tend to rise in the world, while the accumulation of mutations and insanity points simultaneously makes them increasingly unfit for it. But it is notable that an awful lot of WFRP adventures end with the PCs essentially being told: 'Thanks for saving us, here's some money, now fuck off and never show your faces in this town again...'Joseph Manolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05387275537008858939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-84173194420384320952018-10-26T10:34:35.713-07:002018-10-26T10:34:35.713-07:00Please keep on bringing down the hammerPlease keep on bringing down the hammerFridgeghoulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11871399252166838591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-27170528642888278432018-10-26T06:01:35.332-07:002018-10-26T06:01:35.332-07:00Tgat's my world, that's my setting, well w...Tgat's my world, that's my setting, well written Sir!SilasTNAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14056260149397378721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-67374267495884678872018-10-26T05:52:57.207-07:002018-10-26T05:52:57.207-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.BrainPlowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00508233052383218146noreply@blogger.com