tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post5772754118872565661..comments2024-03-25T00:18:14.319-07:00Comments on Against The Wicked City: Drunken incompetent regional magnates: the purpose of aristocraciesJoseph Manolahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05387275537008858939noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-73354288721628943452024-02-01T07:08:42.376-08:002024-02-01T07:08:42.376-08:00I generally agree, except - it was stated from the...I generally agree, except - it was stated from the beginning that blaming another lord HAVE started a civil war. So he was apparently more popular among his peers. And, of course, just finding a new scapegoat wouldn't finish the war, the king would need to make an adequate recompense...<br />MikeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-24686679167016416802022-07-17T12:55:45.044-07:002022-07-17T12:55:45.044-07:00Uff, typos.Uff, typos.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-46363376524453587142022-07-17T12:53:42.117-07:002022-07-17T12:53:42.117-07:00Premodern administration was really messy and a lo...Premodern administration was really messy and a lot less unified that people would think. There is a reason the Germanic invaders of the Roman Empire introduced feudalism: its a clear to understand system and easily scaled form the smallest village to the entire empire. Its also an easy way to satisfy minor chieftains by giving them land.<br /><br />On the other hands, the Romans themselves often relied on local self-rule combined that was kept loyal by the overwhelming force of the Legions and the dictatorial powers of the Proconsuls. However, as we know, this system was highly instable as it gave individual generals the means to challenge the central authority.<br /><br />Early modern states went to great lengths to rationalize the state apparatus and marginalize the landholding aristocracy that wouldn't have been possible on the basis on an economy that was 90+% reliant on the income generated from agriculture. In Germany and Austria (and Switzerland?) there is still a seperate class of public servants (Beamte) that are hired for life and are almost impossible to fire, dating back to the 18th and 19th century when the state wanted to created an administration of professional beaurocrats that was independent on aristocratic client structure (at that time in the British Empire people were still expected to purchase military commissions).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-21594557733261994972022-03-03T05:48:17.961-08:002022-03-03T05:48:17.961-08:00Many DMs could learn a lot of this by playing a co...Many DMs could learn a lot of this by playing a couple of hours of Crusader Kings II or III!Duskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11925274446793976278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-28377432801210774362022-02-13T19:45:29.010-08:002022-02-13T19:45:29.010-08:00This sounds very similar to ideas from the book Se...This sounds very similar to ideas from the book Seeing Like a State. The gist is that many societal structures we consider "natural" exist mostly for the purpose of making that highly local knowledge and those networks of influence legible to the central authority (i.e. the king) for the purpose of taxation and conscription. That includes things like the universal imposition of family names and the formalization of property rights.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-73997189463858080442022-02-08T08:37:11.807-08:002022-02-08T08:37:11.807-08:00That said, in my personal opinion at least, "...That said, in my personal opinion at least, "you are all clients of the same Roman patrician" is as good a campaign starter as "you all meet in an inn".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-16886323925251718882022-02-08T01:56:55.915-08:002022-02-08T01:56:55.915-08:00'Cowed aristocracies' is probably the key ...'Cowed aristocracies' is probably the key here. A Breton peasant behaves in a very different fashion to a Versailles courtier, even if both are equally obedient. Solomon VKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11763252777153908412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-42855038491452949832022-02-07T16:40:25.129-08:002022-02-07T16:40:25.129-08:00Good points all, Calvin. The importance of kinship...Good points all, Calvin. The importance of kinship networks and patronage networks (which often heavily overlap with one another) is another of those features of pre-modern life that was really important in reality, but which is hard to convey in RPGs without drowning your PCs in information about who married who's niece...Joseph Manolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05387275537008858939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-61009298680527577882022-02-07T16:38:14.064-08:002022-02-07T16:38:14.064-08:00OMG! It's DAVE MORRIS!
Dave - permit me to g...OMG! It's DAVE MORRIS! <br /><br />Dave - permit me to gush a little. Blood Sword and Dragon Warriors *blew my mind* back in the early 90s, and I'm really not sure I've ever moved out of their shadow, imaginatively. Those books are seared on my brain at a level otherwise reserved for foundational childhood memories and unresolved personal traumas. Thanks *so much* for writing them. <br /><br />You're quite right I've overstated the case, here, mostly as a reaction to seeing it so persistently understated elsewhere. History being what it was, the idea of a centuries-long bond between a noble family and their fief was often much more ideal than reality. But I think I'd agree with Unknown that reshuffling your lords still wasn't something you'd want to do lightly, especially in the earlier eras that D&D is (notionally) based on!Joseph Manolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05387275537008858939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-83856153936913006652022-02-07T16:21:58.173-08:002022-02-07T16:21:58.173-08:00No, I've not heard the anecdote. The 'mism...No, I've not heard the anecdote. The 'mismatch of incentives' point is a good one - the good lords *were* bad *from the perspective of the PCs*. Players *hate* authority figures trying to push them around - which is why they tend to gravitate towards lawless frontiers, just like their real-world equivalents did, and for the same reasons...<br /><br />You're still coming up as 'Unknown', but if you're who I think you are, you know my real name. Searching for that plus my university should give you my work email address!Joseph Manolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05387275537008858939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-49681603979683289792022-02-07T16:11:49.645-08:002022-02-07T16:11:49.645-08:00LS: They were a vital part of the *state*, insofar...LS: They were a vital part of the *state*, insofar as I don't think you could run anything resembling a medieval kingdom with a medieval level of social organisation without having something resembling a medieval aristocracy. Whether that made them a vital part of *society* as opposed to just agents of exploitation is a rather larger question!Joseph Manolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05387275537008858939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-26838291353578277912022-02-07T16:08:16.273-08:002022-02-07T16:08:16.273-08:00I agree that the medievalism of most D&D setti...I agree that the medievalism of most D&D settings is often paper thin, and that under the renfaire fancy dress they're mostly a weird mixture of liberal modernity and the Wild West. Whether this is worth the work of changing depends very much what kind of experience you want your games to provide. If you want Pendragon, it's kind of a big deal. If you want traditional dungeon fantasy, rather less so!<br /><br />I am *so* tired of the 'gods need prayer badly' model of fantasy religion, which I find much less interesting than the conception of divinity in basically any real-world religion or spiritual practise. I love 'Small Gods' as much as anyone, but it's *thirty years old*, now. Let's all move on!Joseph Manolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05387275537008858939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-10586994006127861792022-02-07T15:54:31.775-08:002022-02-07T15:54:31.775-08:00(I should add that my players have, in fact, insti...(I should add that my players have, in fact, instituted a semi-representative oligarchy in the city they rule over, and are generally good and decent rulers unless you happen to be a worm cultist!)Joseph Manolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05387275537008858939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-37784108244040979072022-02-07T15:50:07.889-08:002022-02-07T15:50:07.889-08:00In their own way, I think RPGs can be a great way ...In their own way, I think RPGs can be a great way of teaching answers to those questions. After struggling through several months of ruling over a pre-modern fantasy city-state in-game, one of my players confessed to being slightly disturbed by how much sympathy he now has for historical despots...Joseph Manolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05387275537008858939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-61346569071371404712022-02-07T15:46:30.412-08:002022-02-07T15:46:30.412-08:00Jbeltman, Montefeltro, Reason: Good points, all. I...Jbeltman, Montefeltro, Reason: Good points, all. I guess I'm always wary of submerging players in too much information and causing them to tune out: this goes double now that my gaming is all online. I tend to radically simplify family trees, for example, making every noble house improbably tiny, so as to avoid boring everyone to tears with lists of cousins and cadet branches.<br /><br />I completely agree that clear and systematic data presentation is the way to go, though, and that even a simplified relationship/allegiance map is much better than none at all!Joseph Manolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05387275537008858939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-27614618880643361862022-02-07T15:31:26.776-08:002022-02-07T15:31:26.776-08:00In this case it was precisely the fact that the lo...In this case it was precisely the fact that the lord in question was the kind of inattentive administrator who would never think to wonder why he was being asked to raise a special levy of conscript soldiers - soldiers who never seemed to come back home - that made him useful to the king!Joseph Manolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05387275537008858939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-25286687042010325362022-02-07T15:27:11.454-08:002022-02-07T15:27:11.454-08:00Nirkhuz - that's a great bit about the Valenci...Nirkhuz - that's a great bit about the Valencian guilds. Would make for a great excuse for a PC party to do the whole 'wandering around armed to the teeth' routine that D&D PCs are famous for. 'No, we're not just roving murderers - we're agents of the *guild*!'<br /><br />Solomon - the Louis XIV reference is significant, I think. I suspect that when people think of kings they often imagine early modern figures like Louis XIV or Henry VIII, absolutists presiding over cowed aristocracies, overlooking that (a) such setups are much harder in earlier periods, and (b) even once the relevant administrative technologies are in place, you still have to go through a long and brutal process of noble-cowing (fronde, etc) first!Joseph Manolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05387275537008858939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-37678648513662670972022-02-07T13:51:41.430-08:002022-02-07T13:51:41.430-08:00I'd have said the Norman invasion was one or t...I'd have said the Norman invasion was one or two steps up from wholesale replacement of the barons... it's not far off proving Joe's point that swapping power structures in that sort of era/socioeconomic structure is hard, destructive and takes a generation or two to settle in. Perhaps it's a cost you might take as an invader who places a high value on the status of his sons, but a bad bet if you're an established ruler.<br /><br />In the ordinary, less-destructive level of change lords moved around a few at a time, and there was some of that going on all the time. But then again even with "and all that" going on, the post-Norman-Conquest era was built on top of some long-established societies and a fair bit of documentation. (isn't the Domesday Book an attempt to draw a line once and for all under the question "are there villages here we didn't know about"?). An earlier, sketchier stage of development seems to suit the oldschool RPG scenario even better.<br /><br />Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13833646849779439997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-40481306435913819082022-02-07T13:28:45.128-08:002022-02-07T13:28:45.128-08:00Hadn't heard that about Valencia. Interesting....Hadn't heard that about Valencia. Interesting.<br /><br />'the word of the king is law' - yes, *of course*, Edward IV could converted the entire population of England to Zoroastrianism with one proclamation. Good grief, I doubt even Louis XIV could have managed that. Solomon VKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11763252777153908412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-35259133847247947622022-02-07T09:37:46.062-08:002022-02-07T09:37:46.062-08:00It goes down to the village level as well. You can...It goes down to the village level as well. You can probably get your goons together and hang the village reeve but then you have to get a new guy who actually spends time with the peasants. In parts of Europe a local village demoracy develops.Calvinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14415905672291942957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-15107270065201048042022-02-07T09:35:18.036-08:002022-02-07T09:35:18.036-08:00Aristocracy is a family business. You're not j...Aristocracy is a family business. You're not just kicking a baron off his plot, you are possibly kicking the people who will inherit it off as well, his cousin in the parish church and his brothers who administrate the dam system and the militia. The family business has internal feuds but they all want to keep it in the family.<br /><br />For the locals you are the weird outsider. For all they know, you could be the warlord with a band of thugs and no local sensibility. And that's how a lot of aristocratic lines start. In Britain there is a lot of local self-management where intermediaries like the village reeve and bailiffs smooth things out (and possibly take the ire of peasants, beating a bailiff is less serious than slapping the baron).<br /><br />Aristocracy in the 19th century still keeps their traditions and beliefs that some things can only be learned during a lifetime. Aristocrats can find their way into careers in the national army or administration instead. You have a lot of disposable time to get good at things factory workers can't dedicate time to.Calvinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14415905672291942957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-37990139111975162072022-02-07T05:52:45.613-08:002022-02-07T05:52:45.613-08:00Historically, mind you, vassal lords were often mo...Historically, mind you, vassal lords were often moved around from manor to manor. And from time to time (eg the Norman invasion) wholesale replacement of the barons happened too.Dave Morrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14468228790874490693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-6299357029495406412022-02-07T03:56:16.747-08:002022-02-07T03:56:16.747-08:00I like the idea about events. The image of a perso...I like the idea about events. The image of a person kneeling before a king to be knighted is such a powerful image of the medieval times, it would be great to capture something of that. jbeltmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02264520619277158883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-77414593335408537822022-02-07T02:03:08.581-08:002022-02-07T02:03:08.581-08:00Now I'm worried I might have already told you ...Now I'm worried I might have already told you that anecdote and then forgot. Apologies if I'm boring on. Too much work, not enough rpg.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13833646849779439997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-392427526916288536.post-83319886529380243512022-02-07T01:53:46.776-08:002022-02-07T01:53:46.776-08:00I like this. I'd come to some similar conclusi...I like this. I'd come to some similar conclusions trying to put semi-sensible feudalism in the background of one of my games. Players ended up thinking that sober, responsible local lords I'd intended to portray as basically reasonable rulers were "bad"... because they had reservations about letting a band of armed strangers do whatever they liked without a care for the effects on whether the iron traders came back next year or the harvest was interrupted... whereas an objectively worse lord was considered fine because he was too inattentive to care about travelling murderers deciding to "solve" local problems with murder so long as it didn't have an immediate effect on hunting, drinking or tax extraction. <br /><br />It did occur to me that an interesting but quite dark game could grow out of really emphasising this mismatch of interests, but it was a fairly light-toned game and the party wanted more wilderness so we left most of that stuff behind. I did manage to loop it back in eventually as a useful challenge - not only did they have to solve the knot of mundane and supernatural problems that all converged in one place, they also had to do it under the eye of a noble whose first reaction was oh no not you again.<br /><br />In something more like a feudal pyramid I'm not sure I agree so much about the difficulty of substituting someone in the upper levels - but I think it's only practical with someone in a very close social circle. A wise king may never want to open the can of worms that is "which of the only three possible candidates could replace the wretched Duke of Backwater" unless the Duke openly rebels and loses.<br /><br />I tried to email you, seems the address I have is out of date.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13833646849779439997noreply@blogger.com